EP 028: L&D Jobs Series Part 2 – Confessions of an ID Hiring Manager

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As part 2 of our learning & development jobs series, Cara North shares her recent experience assuming the role of a hiring manager. While every organization is different and “your mileage may vary,” the advice she provides should help L&D job seekers understand what to do, what not to do, and what a hiring manager may be expecting of job candidates throughout the hiring process.

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Music created by Jahzzar.

Episode Transcript:

Joseph Suarez 0:01
Welcome, everybody to the instructional Redesign podcast. This is our second part on our job seeker series. Last episode, I talked about the job seekers perspective. And today Cara is going to walk through the point of view of a hiring manager. It’s a process that she just went through in her new role as a learning and development manager. So, Cara, why don’t you talk about your experience?

Cara North 0:25
Okay, so I will tell you that, at least for me, I was probably as equally nervous as the job candidates, because I know what it’s like kind of being on the other side of the interview process. So what I thought I would kind of demystify and talk about today, with the caveat of your mileage may vary, it’s going to look different at different organizations. And I did go further into depth on this, I did also have a TLDC episode about it: Confessions of a Hiring Manager. So we’ll share the link to that as well. I think that will Lisa’s working on putting that up on YouTube. But before I even talk about the interview, let’s talk a little bit about how you get to the interview. So as you all can imagine, and hopefully appreciate when we have positions open, at least at my org, and then I’m sure other orgs as well, we get a lot of interest, and we get a lot of resumes. So for this position, I was really excited about it, obviously, I’m still kind of new to the company, and I’m looking to start building my team. And so I was really excited. And I wanted to share it everywhere. So when the job posting went live, I shared it on my LinkedIn, my Twitter, and then my own personal Facebook. And let me just say, Joe, I was a little bit surprised by some of the stuff that happened when I did that. So Case in point, I got a lot of people sending me their resumes, asking me to apply to the job for them. I got some people who applied for the job and then said, Hey, now that I applied for the job, can I schedule my interview now, but probably hands down, the most surprising thing that happened is I actually tweeted something along the lines of you know, just because I’m connected with you on social media, it doesn’t really entitle you to my time because I got inundated with just messages from people about I want to talk to you about this job. Blah, blah, blah. And it’s not that I didn’t want to talk to people, but it was just kind of the forcefulness and some people actually demanded my time. And so that’s kind of where I drew a line. So I tweeted about that. And it got picked up by a recruiter group on Facebook, who basically roasted me and cut me down pretty hard. And so that was really, really eye opening.

Joseph Suarez 3:01
Yeah, you know, it’s, it’s tough right now for a lot of people and the job market is tight. And that means that people have to be doing some things to stand above the competition. But there’s still a fine line between doing something that makes you stand out and behavior that kind of portrays yourself in a negative light as a job seeker, you’re not really in a position to demand anything, and you come across too many as a very friendly person. But that doesn’t give that person that perhaps is connected with you any more have a leg up than than anyone else, at the end of the day, it comes down to being qualified for the role.

Cara North 3:37
Right? Well, I appreciate that. Like I try to be as helpful as I can. But even I was kind of surprised by some of the behaviors. So I guess I’ll start by saying, you know, be kind to the hiring manager. I mean, this should kind of go without saying, but I did get some kind of nasty grams about the whole thing. Like, why aren’t you responding to me, I’m applying for your job, blah, blah, blah. And the reason that I didn’t feel comfortable responding to all that is, you know, my organization has a process in place for a reason, right? So the main purpose of me sharing it on social media, so it’s just something I wanted people to be aware of, and one of them to look at it, see if it would be a fit for them and then then apply for it. So the process that my organization and just say, you know, your mileage may vary. It may be different in other organizations, just putting that out there is you know, you apply for a position, and then we actually have a recruiter on staff at our organization, who goes through the amazing pile of resumes. And Joe, let me tell you, it is a pile because before this started, I was even thinking about oh my gosh, I can’t wait to go through the resumes and look at them. But then as the numbers kept growing and growing and growing, and my day to day, duties at work kept growing And growing and growing, I had the best intentions of going through, I just didn’t have time. And I was even encouraged by my supervisor to basically rely on our recruiter to do to do that for us. So as you can imagine the organization I work for, they’re not all like L&D people. So before this process started, I did have a conversation with the recruiter, she wanted to know more about like, what I was looking for and who I was looking for. So we kind of had like this little mini calibration session so she could understand what I was looking for. And so she could be looking for people. So the first step was you had to pass the through the recruiter.

Joseph Suarez 5:42
I’m glad you walked through that, and talked about the internal processes that go on behind the scenes after someone has applied for a job. It’s something that I talked about in detail in the fourth and last part of my job seeker series on TLDCast, I think I listed like 15 steps. And then I highlighted the three or four that are what is visible to a job seeker. And just to demonstrate all the things that are happening behind the scenes, after you apply for a job after you go through the different interviews. There’s a lot of stuff that happens, and I’m really glad that you highlighted the importance of a recruiter and their role, and why they’re necessary to help screen candidates, just from an efficiency standpoint, would it be more effective if the hiring manager could see every resume to make sure they’re not filtering out any viable candidates? Absolutely. But from an efficiency standpoint, it’s just not possible. And it’s gotten to the point in today’s world, where the recruiters don’t have enough time to look over things. And they have to rely on automated systems, what’s known as applicant tracking systems, ATS, they have to rely on the systems to filter out candidates that are deemed as not qualified. And then the recruiter has to look over the ones that are floating to the top as determined by some filtering criteria and some algorithms, and then those are the ones that go on to be screened by the recruiter. And then the ones that pass the screening, go on to an in person, quote, unquote, because it could be virtual interview, and then you know that that’s considered the second round. And then there could be a third round or possibly another one. So knowing all those things are happening behind the scenes, and knowing where you’re at in the process can really help you as far as just getting your sense of timing, and when you can follow up and just for someone to apply and then be like, why aren’t you responding to me, just demonstrates a complete lack of awareness of how the process works. And you know, if you’re not in HR, an HR professional, and you haven’t been exposed to this, you might not know how it works.

Cara North 7:43
I will tell you one thing, I didn’t even look at their resumes that they attached, if they sent me that message, I just deleted it. So if you’re that person, sorry, I didn’t look at your resume.

Joseph Suarez 7:53
And I actually had a situation recently, because my new team is growing. I’m not the hiring manager. But I wanted to see if I could find somebody myself so I just put something out on Twitter saying, hey, my team is growing. And if, if you have a good portfolio, and this or that, messaged me a little worried about what I would get back, and my fears were confirmed, I kind of had similar things is you people just coming out and saying, Oh, I have 25 years of experience in this and I look, and it’s really not related to what the job description says. And my favorite of all time, I just got a reply that just said yes. And I don’t know what that person thought I was supposed to do with that. But needless to say, they did not get the job.

Cara North 8:42
Ah, poor Yes, person, they’re probably still out there looking for the job. So that’s funny. But I just want to circle back real quick about a point that you made. And then I want to kind of continue the narrative or the process, so to speak. So you’re absolutely right, the recruiting function is something that I definitely have a newfound respect for. And our recruiter is completely underwater, with all the different things that she has on our plate. So we actually did as an organization, we are contracting with other recruiting firms as well. So they’ve also helped with the job search process. So after you get through the recruiter is interested in your resume. What happened then is basically that resume would then come to me, and I would take a look at your resume and judge it, harshly. Not really, I just want to see like what people were working with. And then if I liked the resume, then she would go ahead and do a phone screen. And so that was kind of the process that we did there. So the resumes that I liked, then she would reach out and do the phone screen. And then she would let me know how that phone screen went. If there were any kind of red flags or anything that she was concerned with, and then she actually set up The interview for us. So the way my org does it is we typically have panel interviews. The panel consists of the hiring manager who was me, and then also various stakeholders of the L&D function. So we had our communications manager on the panel had two other managers of their particular business functions that we work very closely with as well, on the panel. So that’s kind of how it started, we did our interviews via Microsoft Teams, because that’s the platform that we currently use. And the interview was also very interesting as well, we’ll put it put it that way, a lot of a lot of interesting things going on.

Joseph Suarez 10:42
So speaking of the interview process, from a hiring managers perspective, assuming that, you know, the candidate has passed the phone screen interview with the recruiter, and now they’re having an interview with you, in addition to making sure that this person is qualified for the role, what are the kind of things that you’re looking for in candidates?

Cara North 11:01
Great question. So for me a couple things. One, I don’t want a clone of me. So I know my orientation, what I look for my strengths and weaknesses. So I really look for people that have skillsets, beyond mine, and I look for people with experience that is different than mine. So case in point for this particular position, this is going to be a lot of development work, depending on you know, the various projects that we have coming in, and I definitely stronger in the ID side of the house, the curriculum development piece versus the development, I can do it, but it’s definitely not my strong suit. I’m definitely not a Joseph Suarez, we’ll put it that way. So I wanted somebody that I felt could come in and kind of have that strength out of the gate. So I really wanted to see somebody who complimented the skill set of me because even though I am the manager of the team, I also don’t just want to be sitting on the sideline, I still want to contribute. And I still want to add to the training experience. That’s that’s just my personality, I don’t want to sit on the sidelines. Second, I look for somebody who also is involved in the profession broadly. So I want to know, are you involved with your local ATD chapter? Or are you helping people find jobs right now? Or do you volunteer? I want to work with good humans. So I really look to see, you know, besides your work life, how else do you kind of keep up with like, what’s going on? And how do you give back to the world. And that’s just something that’s really important to me. And third, this is going to sound really hypocritical. But I’m not interested in where you went to school. I don’t care if you have a bachelor’s degree, a PhD, a graduate certificate. For me the litmus test is what can you do with it? So I really rely heavily on that portfolio review to see what your skills actually are.

Joseph Suarez 13:10
And you say, perhaps hypocritical of you, because you are a PhD candidate, correct?

Cara North 13:15
Correct. Yeah.

Joseph Suarez 13:17
Yeah. But again, you you make a valid point, that is great to have a PhD, but you really do need to have that work experience to back it up. You can only stand on on that degree and letters after your name, right?

Cara North 13:29
Correct. I do think that some programs maybe emphasize different areas. I think that a lot of graduates that I’ve talked to have a great theoretical lens. However, the technical application piece has been an area of opportunity for a lot of people I’ve talked to.

Joseph Suarez 13:46
So conversely, what are some things that candidates might do in the interview process or things they might say that rule them out?

Cara North 13:53
It was very evident to me that a lot of the candidates had no clue what our company did or even took the time to look up. me or anyone associated with the company. So you know, I find that to be a weakness because why are you interviewing for an organization you know nothing about you know, one person said something along the lines that they thought that we manufactured chocolate. That would be that actually be really cool. But no, sadly, we don’t manufacture chocolate. I don’t know where that came from. But it gave me Give me a cool giggle because I’m like, I want to be Willy Wonka. That sounds cool.

Joseph Suarez 14:24
I find that incredibly shocking, because my recommendation to people would be to have a sense of what the company does, how the role you’re applying for might fit into that before you’re even walking in to a call with a recruiter. And to get to the point where you’re talking to the hiring manager, and not know about the company that you’re about to potentially work at that just kind of boggles my mind.

Cara North 15:00
Well, mine too. But then, you know, let me let me flip it here. I do think that there is a lot of desperation right now for a lot of folks. And I know Joe, you always talk about keeping good records of what you applied for. And you know what the company does or whatever, it was very evident to me that this candidate was very kind of desperate just to get a job. And I think it was just an error and lapse in judgment that they just didn’t take the time because it was just like, oh, finally, I got an interview. Oh, what did I apply for again, and we’d already taken that job posting down, right? Because we were currently interviewing for to keep to stop from keep getting, you know, more applicants. So if they wouldn’t have saved that job posting, maybe not even remember our company, then it would be very hard for them to know what we did. But yeah, chocolate was. Chocolate was not it.

Joseph Suarez 15:57
To try and be helpful to people, if you do find yourself in the position where you applied to something months ago, and you go check back in the job description isn’t there, that’s probably something that you can ask the recruiter for. You can always email that recruiter questions later on, and ask them for the job description. And they should be happy to supply that.

Cara North 16:15
Yeah, definitely. One other thing that disqualifies people or gives me a red flag is if I hear the good old learning myths coming up in the interview. So had a candidate that in the first five minutes, told me about learning styles and explaining it to me, like I had no idea what it was, and also gave me their Myers Briggs. And so I was counting down the minutes to the end of that interview, because I knew that was somebody I didn’t want work with.

Joseph Suarez 16:43
And we’ve talked about learning this in a previous episode. And you are definitely not fond of things like Myers Briggs, nor are they well debunked learning styles.

Cara North 16:51
And then I guess I’ll go with one more. Know, like when your stock is kind of the highest if you’re asking for various things. And this is something that I there’s a guy on YouTube that I follow. And I know like when I decided I was leaving my previous institution, I was starting my job search. I mean, I’ve been there for seven years. So I was really kind of rusty, I guess in my whole job search, his name’s Andrew LaCivita, you can find him on YouTube, we’ll link in the show notes too. But one thing that he teaches is do not negotiate or ask for things until your stock is the highest. And I was really surprised by just what people would ask for before they even knew what we were thinking about things. So you know, some person wanted a astronomical salary right out of the gate. I’m like, it just, it’s just awkward. So you know, no, your know your worth, it’s great to ask for things, it’s great to make this your opportunity, but just know that it is definitely a mutual fit, right. So if it’s something that you’re asking for all these various accommodations, and, you know, you don’t know, if you see yourself there, then you know, maybe that’s not the best org for you. But you know, just rather gate asking for all these things, it was just like, Ah, you know, you, you might be somebody that might be difficult to work with.

Joseph Suarez 18:26
Yeah. And again, going back to putting yourself in the shoes of the hiring organization and the different people you’re talking to, in my experience, the time to make sure that you’re within the salary ranges during the recruiter call. Because if you’re not, they want to screen you out early on, they don’t want to get further in the interview process. And then you drop a huge figure, you know, that shouldn’t be a surprise. And then the other time to talk about salaries after you get an offer. And to do so in between, I think just kind of demonstrates a lack of awareness.

Cara North 18:55
Yeah, it’s it’s tough. And I want to get back to the to the interview real quick, because this is something that I think I learned more being on the hiring manager side. And again, this is your mileage may vary. So that may be the tagline of this particular podcast episode, but my organization does what’s called structured interviews, meaning that we’re going to give each candidate the exact same question. So candidate a gets the questions, candidate B gets the questions candidate C. And then what we’ll do is after we go through the interviewing process, we’ll be taking notes throughout the interview, of course, then we convene, the panel reconvenes, and then our recruiter actually is kind of leading this discussion. And then we rate you individually on your overall responses to those and then we get into discussions about how we rated you in various, you know, components. So, one pro tip and this is something that I learned when I was an Amazon. And something I still think has a lot of validity is when you answer a question, especially structured interviews, a lot of them are behavioral based. Two tips. One, usually, if it’s behavioral based, it will go back to the core values of the company. So in Amazon, all the behavioral questions, a lot of times were aligned to the Amazon leadership principles. So you can look those up ahead of time. And then look at those and think about maybe some questions that are stories or things that you can talk about for those. Same with my org. So it is aligned back to our core values, as a company. So really think about that on the front end. And then to when you’re answering a question from an interviewer, use the STAR method. And so STAR is situation, task, action and result. So if you can give your response in, you know, here was what the situation is, or here’s what the task I was given, here’s my action. Here’s what I did. And here was the result. It’s easier for the interviewer to write that down, simply. And it’s easier for them to follow what you’re saying instead of somebody meandering in a story that they did 25 years ago, that I’m not kidding you that our interviews, 45 minutes, one question took up almost 25 minutes of them telling us every minute detail of that story. And it was very painful.

Joseph Suarez 21:17
Yeah, I personally, I understand the benefits of asking behavioral based interview questions like that, I find them extremely difficult to answer. And in my experience, they’re very specific in what they ask. And I often find it difficult to find a situation in my past that matches that adequately, it almost puts me in a position where I need to either exaggerate or just come up and be like, Oh, yeah, and I Oh, it totally worked out well, and this and that. And I just hate being in that position, to where I either have to be like, I don’t really have a good example. But I would do this, which I think is the good way to pivot. If you can’t think of a good example, is to say, I know I can’t really but here’s a similar, something kind of similar, or here’s what I would do. I think that’s a good way to pivot better than lying, but I just hate being in that position where they want something very specific. And I don’t have an example.

Cara North 22:17
No, I think that’s absolutely a fair statement. And so that’s another thing that I will say is, just know that I’m nervous to on the other end, because I want you to have a good representation of the organization. Right? So I am way more forgiving the first couple of times, in the interview, the first couple of questions, and because I realize you’re nervous, and you know, even if you start kind of going down a rabbit hole, I have stopped people and said, Can you rephrase that for me? Or can you talk a little bit more about that kind of throwing you a bone. So that way, you are getting a little bit more comfortable? Because absolutely, Joe, you’re right, these questions are not easy to answer. But as far as again, comparing across, and that is the way that a lot of organizations have to do it.

Joseph Suarez 23:09
Yeah, I totally get why they do. And just one final piece of advice for people would be Google common behavioral based interview questions, and just come up with some pre prepared stories essentially, from your past that you can pull up and you’re ready to kind of go over in the STAR format, I went into one company that’s notorious for having a long and brutal interview process that is almost entirely behavioral based. And I had probably 20 different stories written out aligned to different areas of what that company saw as their governing principles. And I still really struggled with probably at least 50% of the questions they asked me it was a really brutal process. And it’s almost like you’re filtering candidates, in a way biasing yourself to hire a bunch of BS’ers.

Cara North 23:59
interesting your your went there, didn’t you? Yeah, no, I I can see that I can I can definitely see that. Because I do think that if you’re a good interviewer, so to speak, you you can get jobs, maybe over people that may have better technical acumen than you so I, I can see that I’m speaking of technical acumen. Let’s talk a little bit about portfolios, Joe. So I know you talked about portfolios in your episode on here talking about job seekers. So from a hiring perspective, what I’m looking for on a portfolio is I want to see a little bit of an alignment on your resume, the job description in your portfolio, meaning for example, if the job description says experience in Articulate Storyline, and you say on your resume, I’m experienced in Articulate Storyline, then, I think on your portfolio, I should see what, examples of Articulate Storyline. So great, great example here I had a portfolio that I got from a candidate. And they had on their resume that they had extensive Storyline experience, I did not see one piece of Storyline anywhere on their portfolio at all. And what they did have on there was templates of different things that I’ve seen. So that that was a no go, they didn’t make it any further because I had no evidence of their Storyline experience. And, Joe, I know that you’ve went through several interviews where you’ve had to do a work product myself, I try not to do that to people in the interview. And here’s why I am very sensitive to the fact that these products that we use in our profession are expensive. also realize if somebody is out seeking for a job, you’re not always employed, sometimes you are looking for a better opportunity. But a lot of people aren’t. And so I didn’t want to take having by take on the burden of spending money on a tool or, you know, signing up kind of violating terms and condition on their fourth or fifth trial of a product. Right. So I wanted to keep it more even playing field, and for me, the easiest way to do that was with a portfolio because I did want to be sensitive to what people may or may not have access to in this time.

Joseph Suarez 26:25
Yes, and I could go off on an entire tangent about making interview candidates do assignments that are could be used as actual work products, I think that’s on the company’s part, morally wrong, full stop, and it shouldn’t be done. I think it should basically be illegal to ask somebody to do work for free in that regard. And it puts job seekers in a tough position. And my only advice there would be, you have to decide at that point, if you’re willing to continue with the job process, or if you want to walk away.

Cara North 27:00
Um, I do also want to talk a little bit about just kind of requirements of a job. So on the job description that we had posted, it said very plainly, a portfolio is required to apply for this job. We had a candidate that had a great resume, had a great screen, and then before the live interview with me, they were to send their portfolio over at that time, they said, Oh, I don’t have a portfolio. Well, then why did you apply is my answer to that it says very bluntly, I need you need to have access to your portfolio. So I think it’s very risky. If you see something on there, that states you need a portfolio to apply Anyway, you do sometimes have lead time, of course, when you’re you’re applying for jobs, but for that candidate to very bluntly say no, I don’t have one that was a easy disqualification.

Joseph Suarez 27:54
And again, not to continually criticize these poor job candidates. But applying for a job and hiring people is it’s a lot like buying a house or making any kind of huge investment. But buying a house is a good analogy, in particular, because when you’re buying a house, you have like these small opportunities where you get to look at the house and inspect the house and you only get a few times do that before you have to decide if you’re going to just throw down a bunch of money and buy this house or not. And it’s the same thing with applying for a job and hiring people as a job seeker, you only get a few glimpses to see okay, is this an organization I want to work for? Is this a manager I want to work for? Is this a role that I want to do. And from the organization standpoint, they only get a few glimpses of what you would be like as an employee. So not being able to follow the basic directions in the job description is a huge indication of what kind of employee that’s going to be.

Cara North 28:52
Right. And to the point that you made about you know, them looking also at the organization. Another tip that I’ll give job seekers is, again, your mileage may vary is at the end of the day, it was my decision on who I selected. So Elan is the panel that I had assembled, really liked one candidate, they realized that at our organization, I am the learning and development expert. And so they defer to my choice on who I wanted to hire. So even though it’s really important to be polite and respectful to the panel, you really need to focus on dazzling that hiring manager. And to me, there’s no reason why you should go into the interview without knowing that name of that hiring manager beforehand. I even told our recruiter give people my name. Let them know who the hiring manager is because I think it’s really important, again for you to do your own due diligence, as Joe said, to see if I’m somebody that you would want to work with. You can look me up online and get a pretty good indication of who I am and make the determination if you want to continue. And I think I even put in, in jest maybe maybe not in jest on the post when I shared the job that this job does report to me and I realized that could be a deal breaker for some people. So do your own homework as well.

Joseph Suarez 30:17
Definitely agree with that. I don’t think there’s any reason why people shouldn’t at least be searching for folks on LinkedIn just to see who they’re dealing with. if for no other reason, I like to do it just to see the person’s face if I could before I went into the interview. But also, I want to see what their background is, especially the hiring manager, I want to see where they’re coming from and how long they’ve been at the company is as a great piece of information you get from from looking up their profile. On the flip side, the the job that I ultimately accepted, they did a lot of looking into what I was doing to a huge degree as going as far as to listening to the podcast that we have here and reading my tweets, I was asked in the interview process about some tweets, I had given months back about speaking openly about what I thought about kind of the state of eLearning, and things like that, and then learning experience design. So have to have those words, my own words kind of thrown at me and to be asked about them shows one that they really wanted to be invested in the person that they were hiring and know who they were hiring, which is awesome. And two that you should be kind of be careful and monitoring your own activity and making sure that you’re staying professional on all these social networks that you engage in.

Cara North 31:32
Yeah, I agree. And I’m definitely the hiring manager that is looking you up online.

Joseph Suarez 31:36
Well, excellent. Cara, thank you so much for just giving your perspective that you now have as a hiring manager, it’s definitely good to get that that perspective that you had. And hopefully, we’ve given some good tips to people today for interviewing and what things look like on the other side of the table. And hopefully, we weren’t too negative and too critical of applicants. But I really think it behooves people to kind of learn from others mistakes, and to make sure that that they don’t repeat those.

Cara North 32:02
Yeah, absolutely. And remember that you wouldn’t have made it to the interview if you weren’t qualified. So be kind to yourself in this whole journey. I know that there’s a lot of people that are still struggling and looking. So give yourself a pat on the back for even making it this far. And even if it doesn’t work out for this particular organization, it should be a feather in your hat, it should give you motivation to continue forward knowing that, you know, you did have the right skill set and background to make it to the job interview. So celebrate the small victories.

Joseph Suarez 32:40
If you get far in the interview process and ultimately doesn’t work out. I know how demoralizing that can be. But just kind of pick yourself up and keep going. No matter how many times it happens. You might listen to the advice we’re giving today and in the past episode, and think well, that’s that’s fine and well for Joe and Cara. But you’d be you might be surprised by how many times I got to like the final round. And ultimately, they went with somebody else. So just hang in there. I know. It’s tough, but eventually something will come along this right for you.

Cara North 33:12
Yeah, same. I actually thought before COVID hit, I was going to move to the state of Utah for a job. Like I was that close to getting another role. And then when it didn’t work out, I was devastated. And I let that eat me away for a couple of days. So go get you some ice cream. And, you know, feel free to be in your feelings for a while. But again, just know that somebody out there wants you once your talents and you can really contribute something great to this profession. So just hang in there.

Joseph Suarez 33:42
Yeah, I like to say, you know, give yourself an hour an afternoon, not more than one day to just kind of sulk around if you need that. But right after that. You got to pick things back up and hit things hard again.

Cara North 33:53
Joe, I need more than a day to finish the ice cream. I mean, come on.

Joseph Suarez 33:57
Well know how much ice cream you’re buying. But geez.

Cara North 33:59
oh, no, no, I’m not going there.

Joseph Suarez 34:02
All right. Well, thanks, everybody for listening to this episode. We’re so happy to be recording again and releasing episodes and we hope you found it useful. So signing off, this is Joseph Suarez.

Cara North 34:15
And I’m Cara North, thank you so much for listening.

Joseph Suarez 34:22
Here at the instructional redesign podcast, we have a team of the world’s best data scientists constantly analyzing our listenership data. And after months of painstaking analysis and computations, they have determined that our listeners could use some help in the fashion department. Now I know what you’re thinking. But Joe, I think I have a fine fashion sense to which I say denial is a perfectly natural human response. You see, I was there myself once lacking a certain learning and development vibe to my wardrobe, but my fortune changed when I discovered all the swag available at lndtees.com. There I found a fine selection of fun and snarky lmd themed items like t shirts that took my look from adult a daring and coffee mugs that start my mornings off with a smile. Now I’m the envy of every zoom call I attend. That’s what’s in store for anyone bold enough to venture to lndtees.com. That’s the letters L-N-D-T-E-E-S dot com, no ampersand because the internet is allergic to special characters. And if you go to IRD.LnDTees.com you’ll find Instructional Redesign podcast swag, take a look and consider helping to support and promote the show with a purchase. Both links will be available in the show notes for this episode, or you can take matters into your own hands and type LnDTees.com into your web browser of choice.